Who owns the oceans?


Announcer: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

Josh Clark: Arg, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. That's Chuck. Ahoy Chuck.

Chuck Bryant: And we are happy to be here.

Josh Clark: Agreed. That was terrible, Chuck. What a terrible pun.

Chuck Bryant: You're the one that started it.

Josh Clark: I know. I'm just kidding. This is Stuff You Should Know, a.k.a. the happy pirate hour.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: Although we're not pirates (inaudible) never run an hour.

Chuck Bryant: No, true.

Josh Clark: But Chuck, the reason I said, arg, is because I wanted to know if you knew about these pirates in Somalia. Have you heard about this?

Chuck Bryant: I read a little bit about those. This summer, was it in the fall?

Josh Clark: Oh, it's still going on, but yeah.

Chuck Bryant: Continuing.

Josh Clark: This past summer and fall, they were at their peak. They captured $100 million worth of Saudi oil. They captured a cargo vessel with 30 Russian tanks on it.

Chuck Bryant: That's amazing.

Josh Clark: They've been making millions of dollars holding these things for ransom.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: They're getting increasingly sophisticated. The British Navy went head to head with a small fishing boat of ten of them. And after they finally captured these guys, they went on board and there were assault rifles, rocket propelled grenade launchers.

Chuck Bryant: Gees.

Josh Clark: These guys are like modern day pirates. In a weird way, it's kind of cool, but at the same time, they're pirates.

Chuck Bryant: Right. They should send Bill Murray.

Josh Clark: (Inaudible).

Chuck Bryant: They should send Bill Murray. Did you see the Life Aquatic?

Josh Clark: Yes.

Chuck Bryant: Modern pirates in that movie and that took (inaudible).

Josh Clark: I'd forgotten about that aspect.

Chuck Bryant: That's what I picture, actually.

Josh Clark: Really?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah. I bet that's kind of what they're like. It's not the days of the skull and crossbones.

Josh Clark: No, no any more. There's very few peg legs aboard these ships, I imagine. But actually, Africa has long been a place for piracy. This goes back centuries.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: Actually, Red beards, they were actually two brothers, the Brothers Barbarossa. They established piracy in Northern Africa. They were Turks and they were battling the Spanish Christians across the way.

Chuck Bryant: Interesting.

Josh Clark: And there was a lot of really evil deeds done to one another, from both sides actually.

Chuck Bryant: I bet. I'm a Blackbeard guy.

Josh Clark: Are you?

Chuck Bryant: Oh yeah.

Josh Clark: Didn't he bury his booty in the Outer Banks?

Chuck Bryant: Maybe.

Josh Clark: Not too far away.

Chuck Bryant: I know that the Discovery show, Treasure Quest, all these modern day treasure hunters, they can - it's gotten much more sophisticated. They're starting to find a lot of these shipwrecks with tons of loot.

Josh Clark: That's great.

Chuck Bryant: Billions of dollars.

Josh Clark: So finding old pirates is becoming as sophisticated as modern pirates are. Note the correlation, Chuck.

Chuck Bryant: Wow.

Josh Clark: Although correlation is not causation, Chuck.

Chuck Bryant: That's what I learned.

Josh Clark: Okay. So these pirates were really having it free and easy and they were very successful. And one of the reasons why is because nobody wanted to capture them because they didn't know who would prosecute the.

Chuck Bryant: Well, right. They're acting like they own the ocean.

Josh Clark: Number one, their country doesn't have a functioning central government right now and hasn't since the 90s, right.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, that doesn't help.

Josh Clark: Number two, as you said, and I'm so sorry to step all over your segue because it was so beautiful.

Chuck Bryant: It was so good.

Josh Clark: Do you want to say it again?

Chuck Bryant: Josh, they're acting as if they own the oceans.

Josh Clark: You know what, Chuck, they do in a sense.

Chuck Bryant: Right, and so do you.

Josh Clark: So do you, Chuck. And so do all of you out there in podcast land. We all own the oceans. It is the heritage of all mankind, as the U.N. puts it.

Chuck Bryant: Yes.

Josh Clark: We'll get to that a little later on.

Chuck Bryant: Very cool.

Josh Clark: So yeah, these Somali pirates are being shuffled around from nation to nation. Kenya's prosecuting a lot of them. But really, it's not clear whether anybody has jurisdiction over them.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: But yeah. So we all own the oceans.

Chuck Bryant: In a way, sure.

Josh Clark: And the waters off of Somalia have been declared the high seas, which makes them international waters, which means everybody owns them. There are portions of the ocean that people - that not everyone owns, right.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: So you want to talk a little bit about the history? All of this is just so cryptic. Let's really get down to the nuts and bolts here.

Chuck Bryant: Sure. They figured this out over the course of the past, what, couple hundred of years.

Josh Clark: Well there've been treaties dating back to the Ancient Romans.

Chuck Bryant: Oh wow.

Josh Clark: Well yeah, but they were very localized and regional. This is like the oceans. But yeah, that's a couple hundred years, yes.

Chuck Bryant: I guess the first one was the Freedom of the Seas Doctrine, a.k.a. the law of the sea.

Josh Clark: Right, not to be confused with the custom of the sea, which was basically protocol for cannibalism during a shipwreck?

Chuck Bryant: And not to be confused with Chicken of the Sea, which is, in fact, tuna.

Josh Clark: Yeah, it's not chicken.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, so the Freedom of the Seas Doctrine was kind of the first one. And basically, that granted exclusive rights for a three mile buffer of ocean that abutted your coastline.

Josh Clark: Right. We still have those. It's called territorial seas.

Chuck Bryant: Right, but it's expanded quite a bit since then.

Josh Clark: It has. The territorial sea, whether it's three miles or however many miles it is now, which we'll get to later. We don't want to ruin the surprise of how far off shore a territorial sea goes now, but basically it's an extension of the sovereign soil of a nation, a coastal nation. If a ship sails into that and they're acting a little belligerent, they want to shoot their cannons off or whatever, that's an act of war. It's tantamount to invading that nation's soil.

Chuck Bryant: Right. And that actually got us into a couple of wars, right?

Josh Clark: It did. We took the -

Chuck Bryant: Not the big one. That's World War II.

Josh Clark: Yeah.

Chuck Bryant: World War I.

Josh Clark: World War I, War of 1812. World War I was the sinking of the Lusitania.

Chuck Bryant: Absolutely.

Josh Clark: One of the reasons that drew us in is because an attack on another country's vessels in international waters, which is everything outside of the territorial waters -

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: Which is most of the ocean, right?

Chuck Bryant: Sure.

Josh Clark: That is an act of war, as well.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah.

Josh Clark: British vessels capturing American sailors provoked the War of 1812.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: And the Lusitania being sunk by the Germans that was what caused World War I, in large part, or American involvement.

Chuck Bryant: After that, the United States, I love that we were the ones that said you know what, three miles isn't going to cut it. We want 200 miles. And in 1945, we just kind of declared that so.

Josh Clark: Yeah, the great sea grab of 45 I like to call it. Basically what happened, for 300 years, the law of the sea, it was an unofficial agreement.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: An unofficial treaty. So the fact that it lasted 300 years is pretty significant.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, that's amazing.

Josh Clark: But by 1945, one of the reasons it lasted so long is because we didn't have the capabilities to draw things like oil, natural gas, huge commercial fishing operations weren't u p yet.

Chuck Bryant: Absolutely.

Josh Clark: But by the mid 20th Century, we'd started to develop these capabilities.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: And so under pressure from oil companies, Truman, actually, just said you know what, I'm going to unilaterally extend the U.S. territorial waters 200 miles, from three miles to 200 miles.

Chuck Bryant: Right. I've got a stat for you.

Josh Clark: I want to hear it.

Chuck Bryant: Speaking of oil, 1954, we were only pulling out less than one million tons of oil per year from the ocean.

Josh Clark: Right, from all the oceans combined, right?

Chuck Bryant: That's right. And by the end of the 1960s, which not even that much further along, almost 400 million tons per year.

Josh Clark: Right, so these things had increased in value.

Chuck Bryant: Yes.

Josh Clark: Our sophistication in removing them from the bottom of the sea had increased, right?

Chuck Bryant: Mm-hmm.

Josh Clark: And all of a sudden, instead of just some ships passing, loaded with cigarettes, going from one country to another, the sea became a much busier place.

Chuck Bryant: Because there's a lot of money to be had.

Josh Clark: Agreed.

Chuck Bryant: I have another stat.

Josh Clark: I want to hear it.

Chuck Bryant: In 2004, which was just a short time ago, the United States, alone generated 63 billion dollars worth of wages paid out for oceanic activity.

Josh Clark: In just one year?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, 2004.

Josh Clark: In just the United States?

Chuck Bryant: Absolutely.

Josh Clark: Wow. Okay, so it is. It's big business, right?

Chuck Bryant: Big time.

Josh Clark: And I imagine that's probably worth even more now with - I can't imagine how much oil we're drawing out now.

Chuck Bryant: Oh yeah. Four years later, it's probably a lot more.

Josh Clark: So clearly, everybody kind of wants as much of these resources as they can get.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: Which was the 200 mile sea grab that the U.S. kicked off?

A whole lot of other countries followed suit immediatelyChuck Bryant: I'm sure, yeah.

Josh Clark: It was just a mess.

Chuck Bryant: They're doing it. I want my 200 miles.

Josh Clark: Exactly, yeah. And a lot of these overlapped. Think of Cuba. Cuba is not 200 miles from the U.S. So there's just a big mess.

Chuck Bryant: Lots of ramifications there.

Josh Clark: And because it was an informal treaty, the law of the sea, nobody could say anything, really.

Chuck Bryant: Right, true.

Josh Clark: Even worse, now that we're drawing all these resources out and overfishing in commercial fisheries, everybody wants the resources, but nobody wants the responsibility of taking care of the oceans, right?

Chuck Bryant: Right, and over fishing is a huge problem right now.

Josh Clark: Right, sure. And one of the reasons why is because there weren't any treaties with teeth in place.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: Until 1967.

Chuck Bryant: Right, thanks to your buddies in Malta.

Josh Clark: Yeah, the Maltese ambassador to the U.N., one Arvid Pardo finally stood up and said wait. We must do something about this. This is out of hand. Everybody is going nuts. I'm looking at you, United States.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: And he suggested that they have a convention. And what came out of that was the Convention of the Law of the Sea.

Chuck Bryant: Right. I can't believe it took a) that long to officially do this.

Josh Clark: Yeah. He said it in 67.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: The convention was finally ratified in what, 1982?

Chuck Bryant: 82, and then didn't come into force until 94. So it took that long just to get this thing through.

Josh Clark: That's the U.N. for you.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah.

Josh Clark: They're not a fast moving body, you know.

Chuck Bryant: Lazy is what they are.

Josh Clark: Kind of. So at least they did this, thank you to Mr. Pardo, by the way.

Chuck Bryant: Of Malta.

Josh Clark: Yes. It had several provisions to it.

Chuck Bryant: Yes.

Josh Clark: One of the things it did is it codified the law of the sea.

Chuck Bryant: Right, the territorial sea?

Josh Clark: The law of the sea, the original treaty, the original agreement, that number one, the oceans really belongs to everybody.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: It set up an international maritime tribunal for complaints and doling out revenge, that kind of thing.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: Also, we finally get to that mystery fact. You ready?

Chuck Bryant: Yes.

Josh Clark: It extended territorial waters from three miles to 12 nautical miles, which is 13.8 regular land miles.

Chuck Bryant: Right, that's pretty substantial.

Josh Clark: Which are my favorite kind of miles.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, land miles.

Josh Clark: Don't even ask me how many kilometers that is because I'm an American.

Chuck Bryant: We don't play that way.

Josh Clark: No, we don't. We're the only people in the world who don't.

Chuck Bryant: I know. I remember when I was in elementary school, the metric system; we had to study it because we're going to go to the metric system very, very soon.

Josh Clark: Yeah, I remember that. I was in the womb.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, what a joke.

Josh Clark: Nice Chuck. Buy American. One of the other things that it did was establish exclusive economic zones.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: You want to talk about these, Chuck?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, EEZs, basically if territorial waters extend our states laws to rights of defense, EEZs, basically, are our right to resources.

Josh Clark: Right.

Chuck Bryant: We're talking fisheries, oil, that kind of thing.

Josh Clark: And how far do they go?

Chuck Bryant: They go 200 miles, so that's really substantial.

Josh Clark: Right. So basically, it said okay, you can attack somebody if they come within 12 nautical miles of your shore.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: You can't attack anybody out there. But if there's somebody mining in your EEZ, you can come to the international tribunal and we'll dole out some revenge for you, right?

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: So a lot of people already had, basically, what amounted to an EEZ after the sea grab of 1945.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: And basically, they were using the continental slope as the boundary, right? There's a continental shelf that goes from shore to the continental slope. And this is a relatively -

Chuck Bryant: Shallow, yeah.

Josh Clark: Like 650 feet or something.

Chuck Bryant: Right, which doesn't sound shallow to me, but I'm no deep sea diver.

Josh Clark: No, once it hits the slope, you're talking about it going miles down.

Chuck Bryant: Right. That's frightening to me.

Josh Clark: Right. I also want to make a prediction here, Chuck.

Chuck Bryant: Okay.

Josh Clark: Once our technology to remove natural resources advances enough that we can get it out of the areas in the continental slope, it will be yet another sea grab.

Chuck Bryant: Oh yeah. They'll push it out even further.

Josh Clark: Agreed.

Chuck Bryant: At some point, they may just push it out so far that they all connect.

Josh Clark: You know this is going on right now.

Chuck Bryant: Is it?

Josh Clark: There's another sea grab going on.

Chuck Bryant: Oh wow.

Josh Clark: Around the Arctic Circle.

Chuck Bryant: Sure.

Josh Clark: Thanks to our friend, climate change, which I think we used to call it global warming, but that didn't pan out, right?

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: Okay, so climate change is actually starting to melt the polar ice caps.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah.

Josh Clark: And there's an estimated 25 percent of what remains of the world's natural gas and oil reserves locked under that ice. The ice is starting to unlock. And so all of a sudden, Canada, the U.S., Russia, Norway, I think Sweden.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, Denmark.

Josh Clark: Denmark, they're all trying to claim exclusive economic rights to those.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: And there's basically a race going on. Everyone is using geology now. They're kind of following the U.N.'s convention.

Chuck Bryant: Yet no one cares about the polar bear.

Josh Clark: Yeah, I know.

Chuck Bryant: That's not true. People do care. But they're disappearing because of the ice caps melting. It's sad.

Josh Clark: Yeah, they're not going to have too many places to go very soon, I imagine.

Chuck Bryant: No, and it affects their - I was just writing about this. That's why I brought it up.

Josh Clark: Okay.

Chuck Bryant: But it affects their migrating patterns and their ability to hunt because they hunt from perched on the ice caps. They get the seals.

Josh Clark: Oh yeah. No ice, no hunting.

Chuck Bryant: It's really sad. The other thing, too, Josh, we wanted to mention or I wanted to mention was straits.

Josh Clark: I love straits. They're my favorite body of water.

Chuck Bryant: Right and it's a tricky area because straits are usually more narrow than the 12 mile territorial sea rule. So if you have straits that go between - like a five mile straight going between two countries, what do you do?

Josh Clark: You claim it as international water.

Chuck Bryant: That's the only fair thing to do.

Josh Clark: And that was actually part of the custom - no sorry, the law of the sea.

Chuck Bryant: Oh, the original law of the sea.

Josh Clark: Right, yeah, the convention on the law of the sea from the U.N. said we're going to stick with that. That's a good idea.

Chuck Bryant: So they just pushed it through.

Josh Clark: Yeah.

Chuck Bryant: Pretty cool.

Josh Clark: Agreed, Chuck. So Chuck, you might be thinking at this point, okay, this is all well and good for coastal nations. What about landlocked nations? What about Luxembourg?

Chuck Bryant: You know what? Luxembourg has every right to the international waters as you and I do.

Josh Clark: Yes, but how does that help them with oh I don't know, things like shipping. They're landlocked, right?

Chuck Bryant: True.

Josh Clark: Shouldn't they have some sort of access through their coastal neighbors territorial waters, unfettered, unmolested?

Chuck Bryant: I think so. And I bet you're about to tell me that they do.

Josh Clark: They do.

Chuck Bryant: That's good.

Josh Clark: They do. I believe that's part of the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea that you have to allow them access through your territorial waters to the coast, if you're a coastal nation. And you can't tax them. You can't levy tariffs.

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: Basically, it's trying to make it fair, right?

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: The problem is if you are a landlocked country, it sucks for you. There's all sorts of figures and statistics that basically show that, especially developing countries, they're called LLDCs, landlocked developing countries. They can't get a leg up, right?

Chuck Bryant: Well sure because there's so many resources in the ocean that they can't get access to.

Josh Clark: Well it's not just that. Do you remember that you said that the U.S. had $63 billion made from just aquatic, maritime activities in 2004?

Chuck Bryant: Well those were wages paid out, but yeah.

Josh Clark: Right. That's just wages, right?

Chuck Bryant: Right.

Josh Clark: Not including economic stimulus of any kind. But it's not just that. People in landlocked developin g countries have a life expectancy of about three and a half years less, on average, than their coastal neighbors who are of the same developmental progress.

Chuck Bryant: Really?

Josh Clark: Yeah. They make about three times less salary, on average. And their volume of trade is about 60 percent less than their coastal neighbors. And one of the examples I read about was the Central African Republic, which is a landlocked Western African nation. It costs $13,000.00 to send a shipping container to that country; you know the standard ones that go from train to ship to whatever.

Chuck Bryant: Right, right, right.

Josh Clark: To send it to the Ivory Coast, which is their coastal neighbor, right there, it costs $3,000.00. So as a result, landlocked Western African nations are making about 12 percent of what their coastal neighbors are in importing, exporting revenues.

Chuck Bryant: Right. It's a shame, Josh that these landlocked countries can't partner up with the coastal nations and work out some kind of a trade deal, like maybe they have better land for growing a crop inland and in the spirit of global economy.

Josh Clark: You should be president of the world, Chuck. I think that's a fine idea.

Chuck Bryant: I have another question, Josh.

Josh Clark: Okay. Let's hear it.

Chuck Bryant: I was looking at - you know they have some underwater hotels. Have you heard of these?

Josh Clark: It rings a bell, but I think that may be from a Simpson's episode.

Chuck Bryant: No, it's actually real. They have one in Dubai. I believe it's opening very soon, called Hydropolos.

Josh Clark: Cool.

Chuck Bryant: You know Dubai does all those crazy things.

Josh Clark: I know. They've got really great imaginations.

Chuck Bryant: And there's another one off the coast of Fiji that's set to open next year called the Poseidon Undersea Resort. And these are big, big money. We're talking like 1500 bucks a night for a room.

Josh Clark: And think about the insurance.

Chuck Bryant: Sure. These are off the coast, so they're within the territorial area. But my question and I don't have an answer. But my question is that these are private companies opening these things up. So technically, they're on the land below the sea that belongs to that country. So I wonder if they had to work out a deal like whoever opened up Hydropolos had to work out a deal with the Dubai government. We want this little parcel of land under the water, to build something to create a lot of revenue. And what kind of rent do we need to pay?

Josh Clark: Yeah, they probably have a lease like I guess an oil company would have for offshore drilling.

Chuck Bryant: Okay. I guess that makes sense.

Josh Clark: It's probably very long and expensive.

Chuck Bryant: Right. Interesting stuff!

Josh Clark: Okay. One last thing! I think we would b e remiss in getting out of this podcast if we didn't name the five oceans. Can you name them, Chuck? It's not in the article.

Chuck Bryant: Well Josh, technically it's all one big ocean because it's all connected.

Josh Clark: Yes. Nice try, Chuck. You want to try naming the five oceans?

Chuck Bryant: I probably can't do this. This is embarrassing. I'm going to say Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, Arctic. How many others?

Josh Clark: Five, and there's one more. You've got one more to go.

Chuck Bryant: Arctic and oh, it's Southern.

Josh Clark: Yes, it is the Southern Ocean.

Chuck Bryant: That's what it's called?

Josh Clark: Yeah. Who knew?

Chuck Bryant: I had no idea. I thought there were only four.

Josh Clark: Oh wow.

Chuck Bryant: There's three continents, though, right?

Josh Clark: While we all just soak in Chuck's shame, we're going to -

Chuck Bryant: That's a deep pool, my friend.

Josh Clark: I think we should go to listener mail. Good job with this one, right, Chuck?

Chuck Bryant: It's a great time for listener mail. So Josh, this week, we have a couple of things. We have one; I'm just going to call correction ku. This is a correction with a Haiku.

Josh Clark: Oh nice.

Chuck Bryant: We love these. And then we have an exceptional listener mail. Lee Santelle or Santelle! I'm not sure, wrote us in with a correction ku about just the one we released the other day about Niagara Falls and you likened to rebreather to scuba equipment. You probably knew you were wrong as soon as it came out of your mouth.

Josh Clark: No, I thought that's the piece that goes in your mouth.

Chuck Bryant: No, Josh. Apparently, a scuba buoyancy control device of BCD exhales the same carbon dioxide that the user exhales, which bubbles to the surface. A rebreather recycles a portion that the user exhales and the reusable oxygen is rebreathed. So basically, with a rebreather, you have no bubbles, which is why the Navy Seals use it.

Josh Clark: Exactly. I think that's what I was referencing was Navy Seals scuba equipment, not Joe Shmoe scuba equipment.

Chuck Bryant: Of course. In that case, you were right and Lee thanks for nothing. No, just kidding. Here's a haiku, though, that Lee put it very succinctly. Swimming under blue, passing fishes on the left, don't forget the air. Very important!

Josh Clark: Nice.

Chuck Bryant: And we have one more which I like to call exceptional fan mail from our friend Chrissy is what she calls herself. Christina Cannon in Michigan, she's a student. And her family, they sit around and listen to our podcast.

Josh Clark: That is so cool. Hello Chrissy's family.

Chuck Bryant: And she wrote a little poem, an ode to How Stuff Works. It goes a little something like this. I used to listen to Cold Play on my daily walks to class. But those days are finished since the How Stuff Works Podcast. Shows are random and funny and make me laugh out loud a lot. For it's not every day I learn what is the best place to be shot. On behalf of us college students, thanks for telling us stuff we should know. I hope you guys have a great weekend and keep up the wonderful show.

Josh Clark: Nice.

Chuck Bryant: So in your face, Coldplay.

Josh Clark: I know. So thank you to Chrissy and the other one, Lee.

Chuck Bryant: Uh-huh.

Josh Clark: Thanks to both of you and everybody who writes in to let us know that we warm the cockles of your heart because you warm ours. And if you want to know more about who owns the ocean, you can type in who owns the ocean, appropriately enough, in the handy search bar of our beloved website. Also, I would recommend going to OpenDemocracy.com and looking for an article called, "Aiming for the Sea," that argued points about landlocked developing countries that I took a couple of stats from, I'm ashamed to admit.

Chuck Bryant: Right and we would also like to plug our blog.

Josh Clark: Yeah, do it, Chuck.

Chuck Bryant: Which should be now, live on the website. It's the Stuff You Should Know blog and we want to invite our fans to interact with each other and talk about things that we talk about. It's a smart group of people out there, you guys.

Josh Clark: Yeah. You can actually access that through the HowStuffWorks home page. There's a little portal through there to get through time and space to me and Chuck.

Chuck Bryant: That's right.

Josh Clark: And if you want to send us an e-mail, wow, this is a lot of information. If you want to send us an e-mail, you can send it to StuffPodcast@HowStuffWorks.com.Announcer: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit HowStuffWorks.com.