Jealous much?


Announcer

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

Josh Clark

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me, as always, is Charles W. "Chuck" Bryant, who better not be podcasting with anybody else behind my back. Are you?

Chuck Bryant

Oh, you didn't hear about the Chuck and Chuck show?

Josh Clark

Who's the other Chuck?

Chuck Bryant

It's me.

Josh Clark

You're doing it with yourself?

Chuck Bryant

Yes, but I do your voice -

Josh Clark

- That's cool.

Chuck Bryant

- as me.

Josh Clark

That's fine.

Chuck Bryant

It's sorta weird. It's just like -

Josh Clark

- That's obsessive, but it's cool with me.

Chuck Bryant

- avant garde, like, theater-acting, sorta fantasy league thing.

Josh Clark

Am I the dummy in it? Like, are you just like, "Oh, I'm Josh; check me out. Poo, poo, poo"?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Yeah?

Chuck Bryant

Um-hum.

Josh Clark

I figured. I figured you did that in your underwear in the mirror every morning anyway.

Chuck Bryant

It's hysterical. It's really good and the numbers - like, we're rivaling our own show now.

Josh Clark

Oh, really?

Chuck Bryant

People love it.

Josh Clark

I'm surprised it hasn't overtaken it yet, Chuck. Wait, it's that one?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Oh, I didn't know that was you.

Chuck Bryant

Well, there's probably people out there like, "Oh my God, I gotta hear this."

Josh Clark

Let's get to it, shall we?

Chuck Bryant

Yes.

Josh Clark

Enough of this riffraff crap.

Chuck Bryant

Enough.

Josh Clark

Okay, Chuck, you ready?

Chuck Bryant

Yes.

Josh Clark

October, this month, is National Applejack Month -

Chuck Bryant

- Okay.

Josh Clark

- National Pickled Peppers Month -

Chuck Bryant

- Nice.

Josh Clark

- National Breast Cancer Awareness Month.

Chuck Bryant

Of course.

Josh Clark

Did you notice the Delta stewards and stewardesses?

Chuck Bryant

Pink everywhere. I love it.

Josh Clark

Yeah, it's National Mental Illness Awareness Month, National Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual History Month, and it just so happens that we're recording on this Pride Weekend -

Chuck Bryant

- Okay.

Josh Clark

- which makes sense. It is National Country Ham Month.

Chuck Bryant

Really?

Josh Clark

There's a lot of - October is a big month.

Chuck Bryant

That kinda overshadows Breast Cancer Awareness Month and Mental Illness Month.

Josh Clark

Country ham?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, sadly.

Josh Clark

It depends on the country ham, I would say. Then, I guess most apropos to this podcast, which I wasn't aware of - but I don't think you were either - it's National Domestic Violence Awareness Month.

Chuck Bryant

Really?

Josh Clark

Yes, and I say it's apropos of this podcast because this is a podcast on jealousy, and jealousy is one of the more widely recognized triggers of domestic violence. Did you know that?

Chuck Bryant

I did not, but it makes sense, sure.

Josh Clark

According to a 2003 LNE study, in relationships that were domestically violent, whether it was male on woman domestic violent - and there is such a thing as the other way around -

Chuck Bryant

- Oh, sure.

Josh Clark

- women who were abused, as long as it was attended by jealousy, it was perceived by the battered woman as -

Chuck Bryant

- Deserved?

Josh Clark

- less negative.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, yeah.

Josh Clark

Not deserved, but less negative -

Chuck Bryant

- Really?

Josh Clark

- than non-jealous violence.

Chuck Bryant

Interesting.

Josh Clark

Yeah, it's very interesting and it's really weird because it kinda speaks to our perception of jealousy. It's a weird, undesirable, unflattering emotion, and yet, it also shows we care in certain ways, right? Clearly, domestic violence is far, far beyond any level of caring, but it can even spill over that far -

Chuck Bryant

- Yeah.

Josh Clark

- the idea that jealousy equals caring, that it can reach violent levels.

Chuck Bryant

That is one of the more messed up things I've heard in a long time.

Josh Clark

Isn't it?

Chuck Bryant

Because I can hear the scenario of, "Well, he was just jealous because I was talking to that guy at that bar, which means he loves me," which is like - that's so messed up.

Josh Clark

It is very messed up.

Chuck Bryant

Because I, Josh, am of the belief - before we get started -

Josh Clark

- Uh-huh.

Chuck Bryant

- here's Chuck's opinion rant.

Josh Clark

Let's hear it, man.

Chuck Bryant

These are the two things that Chuck says about jealousy that is not backed up in any scientific way: I believe that A.) There is no place in jealousy in any healthy relationship. In the article it says like, "Jealousy can be good as long as blah, blah -" I don't agree. B.) Because of that, I think jealousy pops up when there are trust issues - there should never be trust issues; when there is an unhealthy dependence on one another - there should never be that; and when one or both of the parties is really, really insecure with each other.

Josh Clark

Um-hum, I disagree.

Chuck Bryant

All right then.

Josh Clark

I don't disagree to, like, a polar opposite degree, but I do think - I did agree with the article where it says toward the end - that psychologist that was interviewed for this article suggests that a certain degree of what's called "normal jealousy" is healthy. I don't think it's possible to have a relationship that doesn't have some sorta trust issues.

Chuck Bryant

You're looking at it.

Josh Clark

I don't believe you.

Chuck Bryant

Dude -

Josh Clark

- I don't believe it's possible.

Chuck Bryant

I have zero trust issues, zero jealousy. Emilie and I have never had anything like that.

Josh Clark

That is fantastic for you. I am of the opinion though that jealousy in small measure, to a certain degree, is symptomatic of a healthy relationship.

Chuck Bryant

Really?

Josh Clark

Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

All right. Well, let's get into it.

Josh Clark

Okay, you ready? What is jealousy, Chuck? First of all - jealousy, envy - same thing?

Chuck Bryant

No, not at all.

Josh Clark

No.

Chuck Bryant

They're, in fact, quite different because envy, Josh, is when you want something that you do not have that someone else has.

Josh Clark

Right, usually an object.

Chuck Bryant

Or whatever - a job.

Josh Clark

Job is an object.

Chuck Bryant

Is it?

Josh Clark

If you write it down on - if you draw a picture of your job, it becomes an object.

Chuck Bryant

Whereas jealousy is a fear of losing something that you have to someone else.

Josh Clark

Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

Like a job or an object.

Josh Clark

So, you want something that somebody else has in envy. In jealousy, you already have something, but you fear losing it.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, and like, relationships are usually where you talk about jealousy. So, you basically fear that you're gonna lose your mate to the dude at the bar.

Josh Clark

Right, and jealousy, Chuck, is an emotion. So, let's talk briefly about emotions. There's primary emotions, like fear, disgust, anger, joy, and a couple other. These are found in just about any animal with a brain, all right?

Chuck Bryant

Okay.

Josh Clark

Then, there's secondary emotions that are self-conscious emotions that include jealousy, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Jealousy, shame, guilt, embarrassment, pride. You have to have a sense of yourself - an awareness of yourself in relation to others - to experience secondary emotions like jealousy because you can't be jealous of anything if there's not another person or another something. It takes two to be jealous, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, and Ralph Hupka, he's a Professor of Psychology at Cal State Long Beach, he I know, was interviewed for this article. And he put it really succinctly. He said, "Jealousy is an anticipatory emotion; it seeks to prevent loss."

Josh Clark

Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

That really sums it up right there.

Josh Clark

But it also makes jealousy really, really unusual because think about it. Like, all emotions are reactionary, really.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

There's like a stimuli or stimulus -

Chuck Bryant

- Right.

Josh Clark

- and you react to it. You feel fear because of it. You feel joy because of it. Jealousy is the prospect of experiencing something. So, that makes it an antecedent to other emotions like anger or fear, right? It comes first.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Yeah, it's weird. It's unusual.

Chuck Bryant

It is.

Josh Clark

And what are emotions, Chuck, if not motivators, right?

Chuck Bryant

Sure, yeah.

Josh Clark

Fear motivates you to move away from the man coming at you with the knife.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Joy motivates you to do that again.

Chuck Bryant

Or break out in song.

Josh Clark

Right? And then, I guess, jealousy motivates you to take measure to prevent that loss.

Chuck Bryant

Interesting.

Josh Clark

Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

All right. This is gonna be a fun one.

Josh Clark

All right, Chuck -

Chuck Bryant

- Because rarely do we come at it from different angles.

Josh Clark

Since we're talking about envy, do you wanna talk about your penis?

Chuck Bryant

Sure, that's one of my favorite things to talk about.

Josh Clark

Okay, Freud - Sigmund Freud, the psychoanalyst - came up with the concept of penis envy.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

I had a general idea of what it was and it wasn't very far off, but it wasn't until this article that I read, what penis envy is. It is defined the psychoanalytic concept in which a female envies male characteristics or capabilities, especially the possession of a penis, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, what's that gotta do with jealousy?

Josh Clark

It doesn't.

Chuck Bryant

Okay.

Josh Clark

But it is interesting and I didn't realize - I didn't understand why this was put into this either. This is one of the more feminist articles on the site.

Chuck Bryant

Is it?

Josh Clark

Yeah, I thought so.

Chuck Bryant

Interesting.

Josh Clark

But in this little sidebar on penis envy, basically what Freud came up with was that all women want to be men, and all of their accomplishments and feats are the result of a sense of competition with men, or they're trying to make up for their shortcoming of lacking a penis.

Chuck Bryant

Interesting.

Josh Clark

Obviously, this has been generally discarded.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

But pertinent to your question of what it has to do with jealousy - nothing, because that's envy.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

And we've already cleared the air between what's envy and what's jealousy. I just thought it was an interesting sidebar.

Chuck Bryant

It is. Can we talk about jealousy?

Josh Clark

Sure, Chuck.

Chuck Bryant

There have been studies. It's kinda a difficult thing to study because you wanna study if gender has anything to do with it, if age has anything to do with it, if ethnicity has anything to do with it, and it's hard for age because you'd have to interview someone at the age of 14 as an adolescent, and then again in their 30s, and then their 50s.

Josh Clark

Right.

Chuck Bryant

And that's sorta a hard study to pull off.

Josh Clark

Yeah, the more -

Chuck Bryant

- The same person you would have to interview.

Josh Clark

One of the reasons why it's so hard is because well, it's a longitudinal study, but with jealousy specifically it's so contextual - culturally contextual - that as the culture changes, expectations of what might make someone jealous change as well, right?

Chuck Bryant

Sure.

Josh Clark

That was the reasoning, at least, given in this article, but other longitudinal studies have been carried out, and it could conceivably be carried out. But apparently, no one has done it on jealousy, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, but there have been some really cool studies just about different aspects of jealousy and they have found some pretty cool water-cooler things that you can wow your buddies tomorrow in the cubicles. Women, they've always thought, have showed jealousy a little more than men do - and we'll get into the emotional and sexual jealousy in a minute - but one study revealed that women, when they're jealous, tend to aim their ire more often at the rival, whereas the male will aim the ire at their partner, which I found really interesting.

Josh Clark

- Yeah, Amy Fisher?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Great example of that.

Chuck Bryant

That's a really great example, actually.

Josh Clark

What Lies Beneath, Fatal Attraction - Glenn Close.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Although she kinda came after the family wholesale, didn't she?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, and then there's always the Lorena Bobbits who just fly in the face of that and -

Josh Clark

And the woman who ran over her husband in Texas. Remember?

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

With her daughter in the car, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah. So, I mean, I'm gonna end up saying this, so I might as well say it. I think it's all very personal. Like, it's hard to do a sweeping study of jealousy and say, "People say this," and, "People do this," because everyone is different.

Josh Clark

Yeah, and this other supplemental study from 2010 I think, that you came up with, kinda underscores that. It supports that idea, Chuck. I think jealousy is far more personal than it's been treated in the past as well. For the most part, it was viewed as - it was divided by gender and there are studies that support that - that women tend to be more jealous than men.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

And I guess you have to be very careful with your wording there because it's really easy to skew that idea the wrong way.

Chuck Bryant

Sure.

Josh Clark

It doesn't mean that women experience jealousy more than men necessarily.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

It just means that women display jealous characteristics more than men, according to these studies.

Chuck Bryant

Well, yeah, and they say that one reason might be that they're not more jealous. They just are more open and honest with expressing that than men are.

Josh Clark

- Exactly, yeah.

Chuck Bryant

Since you brought that study out, it is pretty interesting. There's long been the belief that men are more upset about sexual infidelity; women are more upset about emotional infidelity. Actually, that is true, but they always thought that it was evolutionary in its basis because men - and this is pretty interesting. There's no way for men to have proven that they're the father of a child.

Josh Clark

Right.

Chuck Bryant

So, men were always very, like, guarded about sexual behavior.

Josh Clark

Well, they guard their mate as they explore sexuality, I guess.

Chuck Bryant

- Because if my wife Tuk-Tuk is pregnant and I don't know if it was me or if it was Ringo Starr over there -

Josh Clark

What? Oh, that's from Caveman, isn't it? Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, well I don't know if Tuk-Tuk was. And women are more committed to raising a family and having a partner, so like an emotional betrayal would be more devastating to them.

Josh Clark

Right.

Chuck Bryant

But the scientists at Penn State said, "Well, what about the fact that there's men who are really upset about emotional betrayal just like women are? How do you explain that?" They did some studies and they found that it's not necessarily evolutionary in nature, right?

Josh Clark

No, what they came up with was that it was much more personal and specific. Basically, what these two researchers hypothesized was that men tend to be more sexually jealous and women tend to be more emotionally jealous or jealous - over emotional betrayal than sexual betrayal - because men are more likely to detach from personal relationships as a defense mechanism.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

That was their hypothesis, and they carried out this study, and they found that their hypothesis was genuinely correct. That men who are detached from relationships, which they theorize is a defense mechanism, are more likely to report that they would be turned off or made jealous by a sexual betrayal than an emotional betrayal.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

But what they found, and what I think they were trying to point out was that they're hypothesis explains why there's a population of men who are in securely, committed relationships, who consistently report that an emotional betrayal is way worse than a sexual betrayal. So, they're saying, like, there is a division of jealousy by gender, but here's why. It's not because men can't prove that that's not their kid.

Chuck Bryant

Right, right.

Josh Clark

That it's actually much more personal than that.

Chuck Bryant

Did you know that men - one of the most common reactions that a man has when they first find out that their wife is pregnant is "Whose is it?"? Even in committed, awesome marriages, it's like a very common psychological reaction to think, "That can't be mine."

Josh Clark

What?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Where did you read this?

Chuck Bryant

I read it. I did. I can't remember.

Josh Clark

Are you kidding?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, I did.

Josh Clark

So many sites I wanna rag on right now. All right, Chuck -

Chuck Bryant

- Well, quickly though, about that study, too. It also points out that the person's history has a lot to do with it. So -

Josh Clark

Right, it's a defense mechanism.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, like I'm not a jealous person at all, like I said, and I have no trust issues. But if I had been cheated on a bunch of times, I might.

Josh Clark

Sure.

Chuck Bryant

And I have - throughout this podcast am going to refer to nameless friends of mine. I do know this one couple who the guy had a history of cheating and the girl had a history of cheating. They hooked up. They got married and they're both pretty jealous.

Josh Clark

Are they?

Chuck Bryant

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's - and they've been happily married. It's not like they're not a good couple, but they're both just inherently jealous because they're both cheaters.

Josh Clark

Right. It kinda goes back to that, "Judge not, lest ye be judged," or, "When you point a finger, there's three pointing back at you."

Chuck Bryant

- He just looked actually and counted.

Josh Clark

- The concept that -

Chuck Bryant

- You're like, "One, two three."

Josh Clark

Yeah, the concept that if you have cheated, you are aware that people can do that to other people.

Chuck Bryant

Sure, yeah, yeah.

Josh Clark

On the same coin, if you've been cheated on, you're acutely aware that that can happen. I think both of those situations can lead to jealousy, too. I think that's what that Penn State study was saying. That like you said, it's much more personal than of evolutionary origin divided along gender.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

Right? So, Chuck, let's - there have been other studies, too. Some are hokey. Some deserve rim shots. Some deserve sad trombones.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

But apparently, some studies have focused on jealousy as an individual emotion, not necessarily needing another person. That it originates in the self, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

And one of the things that they found was men who are tall and women who are of average height tend to be less jealous than men who are short, or women who are shorter, or taller.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, and - sure.

Josh Clark

- And basically, the point is, is that they know everybody wants them.

Chuck Bryant

Well, and I think beyond that it goes back to what I was saying. I think the root of a lot of jealousy lies in the insecurities of a person.

Josh Clark

Right.

Chuck Bryant

And short guys are often insecure.

Josh Clark

Okay, so if jealousy is an insecurity, we're breaking new ground here.

Chuck Bryant

Are we?

Josh Clark

Yeah, it sounds like it.

Chuck Bryant

Okay.

Josh Clark

Jealousy is an insecurity-based emotion, right?

Chuck Bryant

I believe so, yes.

Josh Clark

And what we're finding is that it can originate from the self, feelings of insecurity based on appearance, height attributes, what have you, or it can be inflicted by another person, e.g., cheating or being cheated on.

Chuck Bryant

Yes.

Josh Clark

Or doing anything to break someone's trust, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Right.

Chuck Bryant

Trust breaking.

Josh Clark

Wow. Dude, we get our Ph.D.s today, Chuck. You ready?

Chuck Bryant

Yes, should we talk about adolescent jealously for a little bit?

Josh Clark

Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

Adolescent jealousy, Josh, is - kids are pretty jealous. They're some of the more jealous creatures on earth.

Josh Clark

Well -

Chuck Bryant

- If you sit around and watch kids, there's two types. There's one that is inherently - wants to share a lot and is very kind, and giving. And there's one that doesn't wanna share. They want what you got. They want your Lincoln Logs. They wanna break your toys.

Josh Clark

They want your Log Cabin Republican Logs.

Chuck Bryant

- They want your - yeah. Kids often display this and especially with siblings with sibling rivalry, but they say - riv-ah-re?

Josh Clark

Whatever.

Chuck Bryant

They say that's a really normal behavior though and not to get too worked up about it as a parent, and to kinda stay out of it unless it gets violent, and let them figure it out on their own.

Josh Clark

That makes you wonder. Like, are kids more jealous or are they just more emotionally honest?

Chuck Bryant

Well, maybe. Well - yeah.

Josh Clark

- Have they not learned that you need to kinda keep a lid on that kinda thing that -?

Chuck Bryant

- Or not emotionally mature?

Josh Clark

It depends on how you look at it for now because no one has proved it either way.

Chuck Bryant

- Because I was jealous in high school.

Josh Clark

Is that right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Were you - did you happen to be extremely lonely?

Chuck Bryant

No.

Josh Clark

Or extremely insecure?

Chuck Bryant

I think I was insecure in my high school relationship and that made me really jealous.

Josh Clark

Oh, yeah?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Okay, so, Chuck, that's actually kinda normal to experience jealousy as far as -

Chuck Bryant

- Thanks.

Josh Clark

- friendship jealousy as an adolescent, according to a study that was produced - well, not produced, but published instead - in developmental psychology, right?

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

And it basically found that kids who are insecure, or lonely, or experience insecurity, or extreme loneliness tend to be jealous of friendships, right?

Chuck Bryant

Sure, oh, yeah.

Josh Clark

So, when they get into a friendship, they're jealous of their friend's friends to the point where it can erupt in physical aggressiveness -

Chuck Bryant

- Yeah.

Josh Clark

- or passive aggressiveness -

Chuck Bryant

- Oh, yeah.

Josh Clark

- where they're ignoring their friend and their friend has no idea why.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, that's - I mean, you remember high school.

Josh Clark

- Basically, another way to put it is high school, yeah.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, and I sorta became friends with the popular crowd in about the 10th grade and I never remember being jealous because I was just so excited to be in the cool club. So, I was never jealous. I was just like, "Yeah, I like everybody, and everybody likes me, and it's all great."

Josh Clark

Right.

Chuck Bryant

But it was the girlfriend that I was jealous of.

Josh Clark

Got you.

Chuck Bryant

But I had reason to be.

Josh Clark

I think it's pretty normal, too. I think high school is -

Chuck Bryant

How do you ever make it through there?

Josh Clark

I don't know. I always feel so bad for kids that take their own lives in high school.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, yeah.

Josh Clark

Because it's just, like -

Chuck Bryant

- Just hang in there.

Josh Clark

- oh, if you would have just hung on a couple more years, you know?

Chuck Bryant

I know. It gets so much better. Believe me.

Josh Clark

Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

We can message that out to our high school friends. If you're lonely and depressed out there -

Josh Clark

- Hang on.

Chuck Bryant

- Hang on.

Josh Clark

It gets so much better.

Chuck Bryant

High school is really - any one whose high school was the high point of their lives -

Josh Clark

- They are the sad people in your past, eventually.

Chuck Bryant

Exactly.

Josh Clark

So, Chuck, that study I was talking about in developmental psychology, it was pretty comprehensive. They interviewed 500, 5th through 9th graders, and asked them about hypothetical situations, and found it was reinforced that girls tended to be more jealous than guys.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

Which is something that I think psychology is having a lot of trouble addressing because it's just such a - it's a misogynist finding.

Chuck Bryant

Sure.

Josh Clark

Girls are jealous; it's so cliched. It's so - the other word I'm trying to think of, but it apparently is this open secret in psychological research intojealousy.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

Right?

Chuck Bryant

Or again, like you were saying, or are girls more emotionally - what's the word -

Josh Clark

- Honest.

Chuck Bryant

- expressive, honest.

Josh Clark

Sure, but when it comes down to a study, there's no distinction, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, that's true.

Josh Clark

I mean, it's open displays of jealousy that you're looking for or at least honesty in whether or not you'd be jealous.

Chuck Bryant

Right, and I could see a lot of high school boys not being - in a study like this not wanting to cop to it, for sure.

Josh Clark

Yeah, yeah. You were talking about types of jealousy. Adolescent jealousy is wracked with sibling rivalry, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

That's just - I was second fiddle to my middle sister, like, my whole - still, to this day, I'm like the baby of the family. I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to be on TV next week," and everybody is just like, "Whatever. So Mandy, how are the kids?"

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, you know about my handsomer, thinner, smarter, older brother.

Josh Clark

Yeah, he and I correspond pretty regularly these days.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, do you? You guys are writing each other?

Josh Clark

Does it make you jealous?

Chuck Bryant

It does, yeah. He was always better than me in school, and better-looking, and like I said, he's in better shape.

Josh Clark

Right.

Chuck Bryant

But we were - I was never jealous of him because my parents were always really good about just - they didn't - "Scott was good at this and you're good in other areas." They were good about building me up.

Josh Clark

"You're good at growing facial hair."

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, exactly. Well, actually, that is where I beat him.

Josh Clark

Do you?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, he can grow a little goatee and a little stache, but he struggles in the facial hair department.

Josh Clark

Good.

Chuck Bryant

Maybe he's jealous of my facial hair.

Josh Clark

I'll be he is. He would never admit it, Chuck, but he is, okay? Take it from me.

Chuck Bryant

And he never rubbed it in, too. That can make you jealous, I guess, if he stuffs it in your face, but we just always got along really great.

Josh Clark

Yeah, and you were saying - did your parents stay out of it?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, I mean, they stayed out of fights when we had them, and they definitely didn't say, "Well, look at Scott's report card compared to yours. He got As and you got Bs."

Josh Clark

Yeah, well, who does that unless you're like a sadistic parent?

Chuck Bryant

They're out there.

Josh Clark

That's crazy.

Chuck Bryant

I know.

Josh Clark

Yeah, my parents stayed out of mine and my sister's relationship, too, and apparently -

Chuck Bryant

- So, you messed yourself up?

Josh Clark

Right. That's the way to - single-handedly, pretty much. But that's apparently the way to go according to some child psychologists. Like, stay out of it. Let them handle it themselves because not only are they learning how to, but you might also actually, like one more than the other, and that can come through loud and clear to the one when you unconsciously side with the other.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

Right? So, apparently, let your kids - as long as they're not beating the tar out of each other, you're all right, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yes.

Josh Clark

So, that was sibling rivalry, which is also called family jealousy. Then, I imagine there's other types of family jealousy, too, like one parent being jealous of the other because they're getting all the attention from the kids. I'll be that exists.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

And then of course, there is - well, there's all sorts of complexes: Oedipal, Electral. Just all sorts of crazy family dynamics going on.

Chuck Bryant

I got an older sister, too. I never talk about Michelle. I should mention that. She's six years older. So, there wasn't a jealousy between the sexes. We were all our own people.

Josh Clark

How much older is your brother?

Chuck Bryant

It's three years and six years, so three, three, and three.

Josh Clark

Oh, got you.

Chuck Bryant

Romantic jealousy, Josh?

Josh Clark

Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

You wanna talk about that? That's really the big one.

Josh Clark

Yes, this is the one where apparently everyone else on the planet but you and Emilie experience this at some time or another.

Chuck Bryant

- Dude, that's not true. I know plenty of couples who aren't jealous of each other.

Josh Clark

Really?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Really?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

Huh.

Chuck Bryant

Is that news to you?

Josh Clark

Yeah, I've never, ever had a relationship that, like, didn't have some jealousy here or there. It wasn't a constant.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, yeah.

Josh Clark

It wasn't a thread and it wasn't debilitating by any means.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

But I've never been in a relationship that didn't have - that didn't exhibit some form of jealousy, somehow. I don't know that I would feel comfortable in one that doesn't.

Chuck Bryant

Really?

Josh Clark

I wonder if that's oversharing, but that's how I -

Chuck Bryant

- Well, let me ask you this: You go to party with Umi. You split up and you see her over at the beer keg - because, you know, the keggers we go to at this age -

Josh Clark

- Uh-huh.

Chuck Bryant

- just talking to some guy. Would you immediately feel jealousy or just think, "She's just talking to some guy?"

Josh Clark

Honestly -

Chuck Bryant

- Or is that none of my business?

Josh Clark

Honestly, I would say that in that situation, because I trust her, I would assume that she's talking to some guy, but I would eventually go over there.

Chuck Bryant

If it like continued or if -

Josh Clark

- Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

- you just saw her talking later on or something like that.

Josh Clark

Yeah, and it wouldn't be for her. I wouldn't be trying to intervene toward her.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

It would be like, "Hey, guy. She's got a boyfriend," kinda thing.

Chuck Bryant

Okay, got you.

Josh Clark

You know what I mean?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, you wanna go mark your territory.

Josh Clark

Because I know her and I trust her -

Chuck Bryant

- Yeah, yeah, but you don't know that guy.

Josh Clark

- and I know - right. And I know that I don't know the guy and the guy doesn't know I exist or whatever. Although, knowing Umi, he does know I exist. So, that just makes me more apt to go over and be like, "Take a hike, pal."

Chuck Bryant

For all you know, he could be dropping a ruffie in her Miller Light.

Josh Clark

That's exactly right, and this is why I think that it is healthy to experience some form of jealousy because if I was totally not jealous, I wouldn't have gone over there. I wouldn't have cared.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

And I would have had my back to my girlfriend, which - whatever. I don't think that's a good thing.

Chuck Bryant

Really?

Josh Clark

Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

I guess that's me then.

Josh Clark

No, no, but here's the thing, Chuck: I guarantee you - I guarantee you we're going to get listener mail supporting your view -

Chuck Bryant

- Oh, sure.

Josh Clark

- and supporting my view.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Josh Clark

I don't think there's a right or wrong view.

Chuck Bryant

I don't think so.

Josh Clark

I think you should - you know when there's an uncomfortable amount of jealousy in your relationship.

Chuck Bryant

Abnormal jealousy.

Josh Clark

Whether it's any or a bunch, you know. You know. And if you're getting beat up because your husband or boyfriend is jealous, and you don't know, go get help.

Chuck Bryant

Yes.

Josh Clark

Because that's too much.

Chuck Bryant

Well, you may not know if you're really jealous though because a lot of people might think, "Well, that's completely normal to be abnormally jealous."

Josh Clark

Right. Well, we're here to tell you - and again, this applies to women beating up men - if you're getting beat up by your significant other out of jealousy for any reason, really, that's not okay.

Chuck Bryant

No.

Josh Clark

That's wrong.

Chuck Bryant

Of course.

Josh Clark

Like, other people who also listen to this podcast think that your relationship is wrong.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

Everybody out here thinks that's what's being done to you is wrong.

Chuck Bryant

That's a good way to put it. They did find that romantic jealousy is usually the first fight that a couple will have is over some sorta romantic jealousy, whereas later on in life, it's all about money.

Josh Clark

Money, yeah.

Chuck Bryant

The mortgage.

Josh Clark

And if you're lucky, it's about money. As long as you're not fighting about trash - who takes the trash out - you're fine.

Chuck Bryant

Really?

Josh Clark

Yeah, once you start fighting about the little, stupid things, that's a big problem.

Chuck Bryant

Do you think so?

Josh Clark

In my experience.

Chuck Bryant

We should start a relationship show.

Josh Clark

I know.

Chuck Bryant

People are just like - what we think about things.

Josh Clark

All right, let's get back to the science, shall we?

Chuck Bryant

There is work jealously, of course, and that is a really ugly thing to have in the workplace. That is obviously when people are vying for the same jobs, or looking for the same promotion or the same pay raise, or the same whatever, and other people are getting it. Or a person gets that raise over you and it's just one of the uglier types of jealousy that I've seen.

Josh Clark

It is. And you know what I think is cute?

Chuck Bryant

What's that?

Josh Clark

This is how I feel about you. If I'm ever jealous of you, it falls much more into the sibling rivalry than work jealousy.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, I thought you were gonna say romantic. I was about to say, "Thank God."

Josh Clark

No, no. Thank, God. Thank God, it's not romantic.

Chuck Bryant

- So, what? More sibling rival than work?

Josh Clark

- Yeah, for sure.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, well, that's because we're peers.

Josh Clark

We're buddies.

Chuck Bryant

And we wish the best on each other. Like occasionally, we'll get individual opportunities - not often, but sometimes. Like, you write for Huff Po, occasionally.

Josh Clark

I didn't think you cared about that.

Chuck Bryant

Well, no, I don't. That's what I'm saying.

Josh Clark

- You've never done anything but congratulate me.

Chuck Bryant

Well, that's what my point is -

Josh Clark

- Oh, okay.

Chuck Bryant

- is that we're real supportive of each other's - like, I wrote for Cosmo last week. You wrote for Huff Po.

Josh Clark

You wrote for Cosmo?

Chuck Bryant

I should be jealous because Huff Po - Cosmo.

Josh Clark

No, no, no. You wrote for Cosmo?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

You didn't tell me this!

Chuck Bryant

What? Are you jealous?

Josh Clark

No, but I'm proud of you. You're supposed to tell me these things.

Chuck Bryant

- Well, thanks. Oh, it was kinda like, you know, Cosmo wanted to know about stress and -

Josh Clark

- That's awesome.

Chuck Bryant

- if like, being mad at your boyfriend gives you pimples and stuff.

Josh Clark

That's awesome, Chuck.

Chuck Bryant

Not as heady as Huff Po.

Josh Clark

Hey, regardless, Chuck. I'm proud of you. So, you send me that link after this, okay?

Chuck Bryant

Well, when it published I will.

Josh Clark

And pride is a self-conscious emotion.

Chuck Bryant

It is. And then, Josh, we've talked about this kinda off and on, but abnormal jealousy is I think what - they called it many things - psychotic behavior, delusional, morbid.

Josh Clark

It's also referred to largely as neurotic jealousy.

Chuck Bryant

Neurotic.

Josh Clark

Where it's habitual, possibly unfounded, or at the very least, detrimental to the relationship.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, and they said it could be for a lot of reasons - insecurity of course, always back to that, immaturity - again, and being a control freak, which I thought was kinda interesting.

Josh Clark

It can also be the result, like we said, of having your trust broken, Chuck.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, for real.

Josh Clark

And -

Chuck Bryant

- Or having - you feel like the trust was broken even when it hasn't happened.

Josh Clark

Right, but I think if you're broken someone's trust, you know it. Like, to a debilitating degree, you know it, right?

Chuck Bryant

Um-hum.

Josh Clark

And there's actually a lot of help out there. People who - if you're broken someone's trust and you don't care to find out how to rebuild it, which probably you just move along, but if you do care, then there's actual, like, steps to rebuilding trust. And we actual did a little digging around and found some, right?

Chuck Bryant

That's right.

Josh Clark

So, we found that - I think anybody who says, "Seven steps to rebuilding trust in ten minutes," it's not going to happen. One of the things that we found in our research was that if you're rebuilding trust - broken trust - it's always going to take longer than you think it's going to.

Chuck Bryant

I would, like, triple what you think.

Josh Clark

I think even that would probably fall short. I think once you start thinking about how long it's going to take, you've lost focus, and you need to refocus on rebuilding trust with the person. So, the first thing that you have to do is tell your partner whether it's your friend, your spouse, the love of your life, your co-host on your podcast -

Chuck Bryant

- Your workmate.

Josh Clark

- whoever you've broken trust with, you want them to know that you understand their feelings. That you wronged them, and that you're sorry, and that you feel totally cool with the fact that they hate you right now.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, and you were completely responsible. You have to own that completely, I would think.

Josh Clark

Totally.

Chuck Bryant

Because some people break trust and then they kinda try and put it back on you a little bit, which is a natural human emotion, I think, to try and deflect blame.

Josh Clark

Sure, yeah.

Chuck Bryant

But it's always better if you just heap it on yourself.

Josh Clark

Well, you don't wanna heap it. Like, you want to have a conversation.

Chuck Bryant

- Accept the blame.

Josh Clark

And yeah, you wanna accept responsibility for what you did. Some of the things you don't wanna do is withdraw, attack back like you were saying, or offer excuses or explanations. You wanna do that and apologize - not attack back, but you wanna offer an explanation and apologize in reverse order after you've said, "I understand that you're mad."

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

And all of this might not take place in like a ten or fifteen minute conversation. This could take place over months depending on how badly you've hurt the other person, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, yeah.

Josh Clark

But, yeah, after you have said, "I know I've hurt you and I take responsibility," you wanna apologize. You wanna explain your point-of-view. Basically, you wanna say, "This is why I did this," even if its as wrong as, "Because I'm a selfish piece of -"

Chuck Bryant

- Jerk.

Josh Clark

" - jerk."

Chuck Bryant

Piece of jerk.

Josh Clark

" - a selfish jerk." That's an explanation, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, sure.

Josh Clark

It helps the person understand why it happened, which I think is a big part of it, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, I would just recommend stopping short of trying to defend your actions though.

Josh Clark

Right.

Chuck Bryant

Because there is a difference.

Josh Clark

Right, right. You're not saying it was right. You're saying why you did it. Those two are separate or why it's right is layered on the explanation, right?

Chuck Bryant

Yeah.

Josh Clark

And you wanna make promises, actually. You wanna go out of your way to make promises. You don't wanna say, "I make no promises. This changes our relationship. You can't expect anything from me." You make promises by saying, "This is what you can expect of me in the future."

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

And it can be - one of the examples that was used in this was, if you lie to your wife so you can go play golf with your buddies on a Saturday morning - which is wow - you want to promise to spend every Saturday for the next two months with your family.

Chuck Bryant

Right, or you could just go to your wife -

Josh Clark

- It was little hokey maybe.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, or you could go to your wife to begin with and say, "Hey, I'm gonna play golf on Saturday."

Josh Clark

Right, or even, "Can I?" depending on your relationship, but yeah. Lying to your wife to go play golf with your buddies? It's like a Bob Hope short from the '50s.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, or a Kevin James sitcom.

Josh Clark

Yeah, yeah.

Chuck Bryant

You got anything else on trust there?

Josh Clark

Well, yeah, you wanna make promises. One of the things you wanna do is not overexert yourself with promises. You don't wanna make fantastic promises because the worst thing you can do is not follow through on your promises.

Chuck Bryant

Because then you've just broken trust again.

Josh Clark

Right, and you also wanna make promises that are not just agreeable to the person whose trust you've broken, but to yourself as well because if you're like, "Well, for the love of God, I've lied about playing golf with my buddies and now I have to go get some moon dust because I promised I would," you're gonna probably resent your partner. So, you wanna come to a consensus about what's okay.

Chuck Bryant

- Yeah, sure.

Josh Clark

And then, like we said, you wanna keep promises and then you wanna kinda discuss how things are going. There's a lot of steps to this, but again, the rule of thumb is, apologize - or say you understand why their feelings are hurt and take responsibility -

Chuck Bryant

- Right.

Josh Clark

- apologize, explain, make promises, follow through on the promises, and just keep an open dialogue. Don't try to hustle the other person.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, if you're a male right now and you're thinking, "Oh, all those steps; come on," that's called being in a relationship.

Josh Clark

Right, and -

Chuck Bryant

- It does take a lot of work, and a lot of steps, and -

Josh Clark

- It does.

Chuck Bryant

- if you're gonna be in a happy one, dude, that's what you gotta do.

Josh Clark

And you will know when it's worth it.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, sure.

Josh Clark

You'll know.

Chuck Bryant

Or when to cut bait.

Josh Clark

Yeah. So, Chuck, I guess that's it.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, well, no, no. I got a few more things.

Josh Clark

Okay, good.

Chuck Bryant

We never finished on abnormal jealousy, actually, because there's a switch that happens sometimes between normal jealousy that lead to abnormal. Dr. Hupka says it's not always easy to spot and define when that happens, but you should be aware of it if you're in a relationship because it can get really bad, you know -?

Josh Clark

- Yeah, when they -

Chuck Bryant

- if it's abnormal.

Josh Clark

- throw acid on you, or pay someone to throw acid on you.

Chuck Bryant

Did that happen?

Josh Clark

Yeah, there was a picture in the article.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, really?

Josh Clark

I told you, yeah, really weird pictures.

Chuck Bryant

He says that a few things you can look for though for abnormal jealousy is if, like you go out or something, you were given permission or you just go out with your friends and your mate is always calling to check in on you - that's something that you should look for. Or if they're going through your telephone book, or your texts, or your address book, that's probably abnormal jealousy, too.

Josh Clark

It is.

Chuck Bryant

And I have other unnamed people I know, who's a friend of mine, who, "Oh sure," the wife says. "You can go out with your friends. Oh, no problem. I'm so cool. It's so cool," and then they get out and the whole entire time, 25, 30 texts in a couple hours to the point where we just go, "Why do you even bother coming out, man?"

Josh Clark

That's supportive.

Chuck Bryant

That's supportive?

Josh Clark

Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

What should I say? "That's awesome"?

Josh Clark

No, but I mean, like, "Why even bother coming out?" That's kinda mean.

Chuck Bryant

I don't know. I'm not down with that.

Josh Clark

I can't wait to meet your unnamed friends. I'm gonna be like, "You're Unnamed Friend No. 2!"

Chuck Bryant

I don't think they listen to the podcast.

Josh Clark

They don't?

Chuck Bryant

No, so I feel pretty comfortable.

Josh Clark

Okay.

Chuck Bryant

And then one more - two more things. Green?

Josh Clark

Yeah.

Chuck Bryant

Another cool tidbit.

Josh Clark

From the Ancient Greeks, right?

Chuck Bryant

That's what they think.

Josh Clark

Did you recognize that?

Chuck Bryant

What do you mean recognize it?

Josh Clark

Turning green because of bile? Remember the four humors we talked about in our happiness audiobook that never got released?

Chuck Bryant

Oh, that's right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they think that came from a buildup of bile when you're jealous or envious.

Josh Clark

Yeah, yellow bile.

Chuck Bryant

And it would actually turn your skin green.

Josh Clark

Yes.

Chuck Bryant

Yellow bile will turn your skin green?

Josh Clark

I think.

Chuck Bryant

I think it would be green bile.

Josh Clark

Yeah, there's a - well, there isn't. There's yellow bile, black bile, blood, and phlegm were the four humors.

Chuck Bryant

I like black bile.

Josh Clark

We're both black bile and a little bit of blood. We're both sanguine and melancholy.

Chuck Bryant

And can we talk about animals real quick?

Josh Clark

Uh-huh.

Chuck Bryant

Animals actually show jealousy - forms of jealousy.

Josh Clark

No they don't.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, they do.

Josh Clark

No, they don't, Chuck. If you read this, a sense of fairness does not indicate jealousy and what's more, the animals may have envied the other animal's treat.

Chuck Bryant

The proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences did a study where they tested dogs to give them treats when they would shake as a reward.

Josh Clark

Like, shake their paw.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, and they saw that if another dog was getting a treat - a piece of food afterward - and the other wasn't, that the dog that wasn't would eventually after a couple times just be like, "I'm not shaking until I get some food." And they tested that in monkeys and they found that the monkeys got jealous over the kind of treat even. The ones that got a cucumber were like at first, "Oh, this is great. I get a cucumber for a treat." Then, they noticed that their buddy was getting a grape, which tastes a lot better, I guess, to a monkey. And the monkeys would actually just stop performing because they didn't get a treat as good as the other monkey.

Josh Clark

You know what's weird? That came up when we were doing research for our Super Stuffed Guide to the Economy audiobook.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, that's right. I knew that sounded familiar.

Josh Clark

It was at Yurkie's at Emory down the street. See, the thing is, Chuck, is that's a sense of fairness. It's not the same thing as jealousy and I don't think that the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences got it wrong. I think NPR did because sometimes NPR gets things wrong.

Chuck Bryant

Well, sometimes.

Josh Clark

- As much as it pains me to say it.

Chuck Bryant

Five times per podcast we get something wrong, so -

Josh Clark

Per podcast.

Chuck Bryant

Per podcast. You might say jealous. Some say elephants get jealous.

Josh Clark

Elephants can't remember.

Chuck Bryant

It's hard to tell with animals because you can't ask an animal.

Josh Clark

Well, currently, the prevailing scientific way of looking at it is animals don't have a sense of self enough to experience secondary emotions like jealousy, or shame, or embarrassment. You have to have a conscious sense of self. I think animals do, but science is like, "Well, prove it."

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

And we haven't figured out how to prove it yet.

Chuck Bryant

Interesting.

Josh Clark

So, that's where stand, buddy. Are you ready? I see you've got a fine piece of listener mail right there.

Chuck Bryant

Yeah, do you have anything else?

Josh Clark

Nope. So, if you wanna learn more about jealousy, trust, all that kinda stuff, you can type jealousy or trust into the swinging search bar at HowStuffWorks.com. Since I said that, I think nowadays, it's times for listener mail.

Chuck Bryant

It is, Josh. I'm gonna call this just one of many polygamy e-mails we got. It blew up.

Josh Clark

It really did. We got one from Lou Bega. Did you see?

Chuck Bryant

You know, we got two e-mails from Lou Bega and I wrote him back the first time because he said, "Hey, guys. I'm not pumping gas. I'm slicing meat at a deli, just so you know." And I wrote him back. I said, "Slice it thin, Lou." Then, he wrote back again and said about the Mormon one - the polygamy podcast -

Josh Clark

- Yes, he was defining poly -

Chuck Bryant

- Do you think it's him?

Josh Clark

I'm kinda leaning toward it, dude.

Chuck Bryant

I wrote him back today and I said, "Listen. If this is the real Lou Bega of hit song fame, then I'm gonna need photographic evidence."

Josh Clark

That's what I was thinking, too, but I didn't have time to e-mail him. So, I'm glad you did.

Chuck Bryant

I want a picture of Lou Bega.

Josh Clark

I wish you'd CC me on these. That kinda makes me jealous.

Chuck Bryant

That I don't CC you on fan mail?

Josh Clark

Yes, when it's Lou Bega.

Chuck Bryant

It depends on who it is.

Josh Clark

Okay, well CC me on the rest, especially if he sends in photo evidence. What's funny is he's gonna send a picture of himself and you're gonna be like, "Wait, what the hell did Lou Bega look like?"

Chuck Bryant

No, I remember what he looks like.

Josh Clark

What if he doesn't wear a fedora?

Chuck Bryant

I wonder in the deli if he's like, "A little bit turkey for your bag."

Josh Clark

"A little bit of pumpernickel. No, some rye."

Chuck Bryant

Oh, dear. So, this one, like I said, we heard from a lot of people from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. A lot of people said, "It was really great. You got it right." A lot of people said, "You got it all wrong."

Josh Clark

Or they said we didn't distinguish that enough. I disagree. I think we did.

Chuck Bryant

I thought we did distinguish it.

Josh Clark

We said quite plainly that most Mormons don't do this and that this is the Fundamentalist Mormons that do this.

Chuck Bryant

Right.

Josh Clark

And like with a capital F - Fundamentalist Mormons. That's their name.

Chuck Bryant

Well, and a distinction between the Church of Latter Day Saints and Mormonism, right? Maybe that's what the distinction was.

Josh Clark

Maybe so. We'll find out.

Chuck Bryant

You gotta read this.

Josh Clark

We'll have a whole 'nother batch.

Chuck Bryant

This is from Susan. "Hey, guys. I've said it before. I'll say it again. You guys are awesome. I just had a few clarifications about the Mormons concerning their practice of polygamy in your recent podcast. I, myself, am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and a history buff on this topic because a few of my ancestors were early members who practiced polygamy."

Josh Clark

Right.

Chuck Bryant

"Polygamy was not a blanket requirement for being a good member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It was only practiced by a small portion of the membership of the church and was only done so at the discretion of the president of the church. You couldn't just decide to do it yourself unless you wanted to be excommunicated and/or seriously disciplined. Those men who were asked to practice polygamy were mostly leaders of the church and all parties were willing and gave their consent to the marriages. You mentioned that after the church stopped practicing polygamy, they promised to excommunicate any who continued to do so, but even when they advocated the practice that was selectively practiced among the leaders of the church. I have to say in this day and age, I would be hard-pressed to find a good reason to practice polygamy, at least in the Western world. Back in the pioneer times of wagons and gas lamps, I could see some benefits. My great-great-great-great grandmother, who was a second wife said that -" not second wife as in - second of two active wives, I think is what she means.

Josh Clark

Okay.

Chuck Bryant

"That in a lonely, dreary, dangerous part of the wilderness, that she and the first wife settled with their children and husband. It was comforting to have a close friend and neighbor who she knew would help them at any moment for any reason when there were no other neighbors around for hundreds of miles back in the day. As a member of the LDS faith, I appreciate your respect in discussing the issues that are close to my heart and in accurately representing facts that are so often misreported and misconstrued. If you guys decide to do a podcast on the LDS, I would recommend you visit the church's official websites and access material there for clarification of practices and beliefs." So, and she said, "I'll give you any help you need," too, because "I got the 9-1-1."

Josh Clark

Nice.

Chuck Bryant

The 4-1-1.

Josh Clark

Nice.

Chuck Bryant

That's Susan B.

Josh Clark

Thanks, Susan B. That was very kind of you to take the time to write in and to say we treated it respectfully. We thought we did as opposed to some people who did not think we did.

Chuck Bryant

We tried to.

Josh Clark

Totally, aside from the swinger - the intro, I think.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, come on.

Josh Clark

Anyway, thank you very much for that Susan and to everybody who wrote in with their opinion one way or the other. That's very cool, and thanks for the bit of history and research, Susan. We always appreciate that.

Chuck Bryant

Oh, yeah.

Josh Clark

If you have a story about your best Country Ham Month, we wanna hear about it. Wrap it up in a podcast; no, wrap it up in an e-mail, right? Or I guess you could record a podcast on it and then e-mail that to us.

Chuck Bryant

You could do that.

Josh Clark

Or a link and send it to Chuck, and Jerry, and me at StuffPodcast@HowStuffWorks.com.

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