How the MARS Turbine Works

Announcer: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from

Josh Clark: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. Charles W. Chuck Bryant is picking his nose.

Chuck Bryant: No, but you know what, to be off color, I had all these jokes about me generating wind ready to go, and then the red light came on and I just went blank.

Josh Clark: I think that's probably good. I think it's for the best.

Chuck Bryant: So can I just say, Josh, I love to generate wind.

Josh Clark: Yes, you can.

Chuck Bryant: Okay, that's my joke.

Josh Clark: It's a good one. Chuck?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah?

Josh Clark: You want to talk about wind generation?

Chuck Bryant: Let's do it.

Josh Clark: Well, let's go in a different direction first. You know bats have been taking a hit lately, right?

Chuck Bryant: As in flying bats?

Josh Clark: Yeah.

Chuck Bryant: I thought you meant baseball bats have been taking a hit.

Josh Clark: I know. I wouldn't say something like that. This isn't TechStuff, buddy. Bats have been taking a hit. There's this white fungus that basically has been wiping out entire bat colonies, and coming close to wiping out entire species around the United States.

Chuck Bryant: Is the fungus on the bat?

Josh Clark: Yeah, it's on the bat's nose, the muzzle. It's really horrible, and it's kind of a big deal. If you study bats, you're alarmed right now, right?

Chuck Bryant: Sure.

Josh Clark: That's not the only thing. That's probably the biggest risk to the bat population in the United States, but there's another one that was mysterious for a little while, and it was bats dying near wind turbines.

Chuck Bryant: Really.

Josh Clark: Yeah, but the weird thing was you could walk up to a dead bat on the ground near a windmill, a wind turbine that's used for generating electricity, and the bat would be totally uninjured. There was nothing wrong with it. It wasn't bleeding. I didn't have any signs of trauma.

Chuck Bryant: See, I thought the radar might have said this is food, and it smacked into one of the propeller blades.

Josh Clark: No, it did not, actually. That's addressed in this article, Wind Turbines Kill Bats Without Impact on the Discovery Channel website.

Ch uck Bryant: It's all right there in the title isn't it?

Josh Clark: And it says that bats don't run into things. This expert who's quoted in it says that, he's like, they're really good with sonar, so they don't run into things that they didn't mean to. Which is weird because that means when bats come down and hit you in the head, they meant to.

Chuck Bryant: Jerks.

Josh Clark: What they found out, finally, that solved this mystery was that their lungs were exploding because of a pressure drop.

Chuck Bryant: What?

Josh Clark: Yeah, a pressure drop from the rotation of the blades, when they got close enough to the blades, their lungs would explode.

Chuck Bryant: Holy cow.

Josh Clark: It would take about a 4-kilopascal change - a Pascal is a measure of pressure; a kilopascal is a thousand measures of pressure, to kill a bat, it said in the article, and the wind turbines, above the turbine, right above it, generates a 5 to 10 kilopascal drop. So these bats were just getting near it, and then boom, their lungs were exploding and they were hitting the ground.

Chuck Bryant: Their little tiny lungs would just pop. That's the saddest thing I've ever heard.

Josh Clark: So what do you do, Chuck? Wind energy is wonderful. It's generally a very green type of energy.

Chuck Bryant: I've got some updated stats for you. Do you want to hear some stats?

Josh Clark: Let's talk about it.

Chuck Bryant: This is some wind energy stats, Josh. Last year, in 2009, we produced, worldwide, 159,213 megawatts of electricity thanks to wind, which is pretty good. It's enough to power Italy for a whole year.

Josh Clark: Is it really? For a year?

Chuck Bryant: Uh-huh, the whole country for the whole year.

Josh Clark: But that's a drop in the bucket for overall electricity production, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, a very small percentage is produced by wind. They do predict by the end of this year, that it will crack 200,000, and they have also said that since they started this whole whacky wind capturing stuff, that it doubles every three years, capacity does, so we're headed in the right direction.

Josh Clark: It sounds like it.

Chuck Bryant: And wind is a great way to get energy because you put up the thing, the wind blows, it produces - I mean, it's as easy as it gets.

Josh Clark: Right. It's very Dutch.

Chuck Bryant: Very, very Dutch.

Josh Clark: The problem is, Chuck, as I said, it was a very green technology, but there's a lot of overlooked environmental impacts, if we may jump around a tad.

Chuck Bryant: Sure.

Josh Clark: These things are enormous. I've never seen one. I've seen pictures on TV -

Chuck Bryant: They're big.

Josh Clark: Or on the internet, right.

Chuck Bryant: In Rainman.

Josh Clark: Did they pass a wind farm?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, if you drive to Palm Springs from L.A., you go by that huge famous wind turbine farm.

Josh Clark: Chuck, I'm glad to hear the H is back.

Chuck Bryant: Did I say huge?

Josh Clark: Yes, you did.

Chuck Bryant: Sorry, I meant uge.

Josh Clark: No, you didn't. You meant huge. Okay, yeah, but they're enormous. The turbines, apparently, are about the size of a 747.

Chuck Bryant: They're huge.

Josh Clark: Weigh thousands and thousands of pounds, and they're catching wind at about 200 feet up. They're enormous. Just one single turbine, right, and there are a lot of bat and bird deaths. To get these things in there, you have to basically construct new road in a lot of cases, you're promoting soil erosion, and habitat fragmentation. So not quite as green as people would like to believe, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, Josh, it can have a big impact on the environment in setting it all up, and you kind of don't think about that when you're like, ooh, I could get free wind energy. Well, not free, obviously. It's pretty expensive.

Josh Clark: But it's a gift from nature, isn't it?

Chuck Bryant: There you go, very nice.

Josh Clark: So what do you do though, Chuck? Because everybody wants this more than, say, fossil fuels? Well, everybody outside of the oil industry wants this more than fossil fuels, and by oil, of course, I mean coal as well, and natural gas. But I mean, in the greener corners of the globe, wind energy is a winner, right? So how do you overcome these problems, these obstacles to make wind energy truly green?

Chuck Bryant: I'm glad you asked, Josh. Potentially, my friend, we may see little tiny blimp-like balloons hovering in the air at about 1,000 feet harnessing wind. Much higher, and as I said, it's floating in the air, so it doesn't have some huge foundation that needs to be built and erode the ground. It's just tethered to the ground by a tether.

Josh Clark: A tether that serves as an electrical cable, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, so that's the MARS Turbine. M-A-R-S, it does not have anything to do with the planet, the red planet. It stands for the - is it Magenn? I did not know how to pronounce it.

Josh Clark: I didn't want to touch that one for the same reason.

Chuck Bryant: M-A-G-E-N-N is the name of the company. The Magenn Air Rotor System, MARS, so it's an acronym.

Josh Clark: Right, and basically it's a - well, the CEO of - we're gonna go with Magenn.

C huck Bryant: Okay, I'm down with that.

Josh Clark: Okay, he likened them to floating white sausages with paddleboat wheels, right?

Chuck Bryant: Is that what he said?

Josh Clark: It's what it says.

Chuck Bryant: It's like a floating white sausage, okay.

Josh Clark: Yeah, it's just a little blimp with some turbines on it. It looks like a blimp with paddlewheels on it, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, I would call it a football before I would call it a white sausage. I don't know where this guy's head is, but -

Josh Clark: He's hungry.

Chuck Bryant: I guess so. He's ready for some Bratwurst.

Josh Clark: And you're ready for football season.

Chuck Bryant: Yes, I am, which also includes Bratwurst, oddly.

Josh Clark: So yours is all-encompassing.

Chuck Bryant: It is.

Josh Clark: Chuck?

Chuck Bryant: Yes.

Josh Clark: You said that this - so we've got a floating white football sausage with turbines that's connected to a tether at each end, right, and the wind hits it and it spins.

Chuck Bryant: The whole thing spins. It's not like - it is like pinwheel. The whole thing rotates as if a football were spiraling.

Josh Clark: Right, so the turbine is connected to the blimp, so the whole blimp is spinning, turbine, blimp, and all. And then, at the ends, there's electrical generators, so the tethers, like I said, actually double as electrical cables.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, it's not just a rope.

Josh Clark: Right, and so the blimp is spinning, it's generating electricity, it's sending the electricity down the tethers to a transformer, which serves a power station, which is connected to the grid.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, or stores it in batteries. There's other things you can do with it.

Josh Clark: Sure. And it's really that simple. It runs on electromagnetic induction, right, which I looked this up a little bit.

Chuck Bryant: Let's hear it.

Josh Clark: Remember Michael Faraday, he was on our genius list?

Chuck Bryant: How could I forget?

Josh Clark: So Michael Faraday, in 1831, came up with this. He, I guess, was just sitting around his house drunk on scotch, screwing with wire, coils, and magnets, right, and he discovered that you could generate an electrical current by passing a magnet through a series of wire coils. You're actually changing what should be a static electrical field, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, that was a very big discovery.

Josh Clark: It was, and he also found that the faster you passed the magnet through, the faster you moved the magnet, the higher the voltage, the stronger the current. So what the MARS turbine is doing is the faster it turns, the quicker it moves the magnets through their wire coils, the stronger the electrical current, which is one reason why the float so high up. Because the air speeds at 1,000 feet are significantly stronger than they are at 200 feet where a ground-based wind turbine is located, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, every time you double your elevation, there's a 12 percent increase in wind speed, and every doubling of wind speed, there's an eightfold increase in wind power. So a 200-foot turbine attached to the ground is just not nearly effective as one that's floating 1,000 feet up in the air. And the reason, obviously, is because there's no trees or buildings, there's no wind resistance, so it's just free flowing, buddy.

Josh Clark: Yeah, and it's pretty constant up there as well. It's kind of windy up high.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, which helps because inconsistent wind is one of the problems with wind generation, obviously.

Josh Clark: But not only that, the MARS turbine - also, we should say here that we're getting no money whatsoever for this. We're just fans. But the MARS turbine is sensitive enough to be able to produce usable electrical voltage with wind speeds of as low as seven miles an hour, but it can also withstand really strong winds that land-based turbines are designed to shut down in, so I think a land-based turbine is designed to shut down at about 45 miles an hour?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, 45.

Josh Clark: And the MARS turbine can continue to produce electricity in 63 mile an hour winds, I think.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, and anything above that, anything above 63 to 65, they have - just like blimps do, they have controls on it, like, overspeed controls, and emergency deflate, so if it gets - they can do two things, if it starts spinning way too fast, they have a system that kicks in that reels it in automatically and lowers it. The wind might not be as great at 300 feet, so they can keep running it. If it's really out of control, they'll just reel it in all-together, the system will, or if there's some really big emergency, like the tether breaks and all of a sudden it's flying over your neighbors farm, it will automatically deflate, which is what blimps have, this emergency system.

Josh Clark: Right, and that's one of the things that we should probably mention is its design. It floats because it's filled with helium, right, or some lighter than air gas, but I believe they use helium.

Chuck Bryant: They use helium.

Josh Clark: And the blimp itself is made out of - as writer Jennifer Horton put it, the same material used in bulletproof vests. I was wondering, is that Kevlar, is that chicken feathers, or spider silk harvested from goats?

Chuck Bryant: I actually know the answer.

Josh Clark: What is it?

Chuck Bryant: I checked into this because it was slightly vague. The outer fabric is Dacron, woven Dacron, and that is what's used for boat sails. The actual fins that catch the wind to spin the football is Vectren, and that is what is used in bulletproof vests these days, apparently, some of them. And then, the coating, it's also lined with something called Tedlar, and that's the same kind of plastic coating you find on house siding. So that's what protects it from UV damage, abrasion, stuff like that.

Josh Clark: And your new nickname is Chucktran.

Chuck Bryant: Chucktron.

Josh Clark: No, Chucktran.

Chuck Bryant: And then the inner portion of it is - have you ever seen those little -

Josh Clark: Mylar balloons?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, the little funny aluminum-looking balloons. It's not aluminum, it's Mylar.

Josh Clark: Right.

Chuck Bryant: And that's what this thing is lined with because that holds in your helium really well, they found out.

Josh Clark: And just to keep it even greener, if you look closely inside the MARS turbine, you'll see little sentiments like, get well soon, or you're one year cuter.

Chuck Bryant: It's a boy. That was one of my big questions when I was reading this was, wait a minute, what about the helium? Because I've had those Mylar balloons and they don't hold it forever.

Josh Clark: No they don't, but -

Chuck Bryant: Two weeks later, it's sadly hovering at your kneecaps.

Josh Clark: Helium - I think helium being held in a Mylar space is greatly increased in cold temperatures. It's cold at 1,000 feet.

Chuck Bryant: Okay, that helps.

Josh Clark: Much colder, and the pressure, there's less air pressure at 1,000 feet as well, so there's less -well, there's less pressure trying to force it out, I think.

Chuck Bryant: Good point. But I did find out how much leaks because it does leak.

Josh Clark: Well, yeah, I would think it would have to leak.

Chuck Bryant: .5 percent per month, so if you buy one of these things - and we should point out that theoretically, these are going to be available to consumers, like, early 2011 is what they're looking at right now. The price of the thing does not come with the helium. Just like when you buy a new car, they don't necessarily have it full of gas for you. You have to provide your own gas, and the 100 kilowatt version requires 200,000 cubic feet of helium, which is about $60,000.00 to fill it up with helium.

Josh Clark: Wow. That's how they get you.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, exactly. That's where they get you, but if it leaks .5 a month, that means they say on the website, like, every four to six months, just top her off with helium for $5,000.00 and you'll be fine.

Josh Clark: Right, but these things are built to last. The company, I think, estimates, it said that they can float there without being patched for maybe 15 years without any need for maintenance.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah because of all the tough stuff it's made of.

Josh Clark: And, Chuck, if you happen to wonder, this thing is spinning in the air, right, on an axis, how does the Magnus Effect factor in? Does it factor in at all? The answer to that one, buddy, is yes.

Chuck Bryant: Are you talking about the Magnus Von Magnus Effect, or just the Magnus Effect?

Josh Clark: The Magnus Effect.

Chuck Bryant: Okay because the Magnus Von Magnus Effect is when you are able to lift a beer keg made of concrete in your overalls and carry it 100 feet.

Josh Clark: Well, yeah, everybody knows that. Much lesser known is the regular old Magnus Effect, right? You see it in every day. It's the spin on curve ball. Basically, as a spherical or roundish object travels through the air as it's spinning on an axis, it creates an actual area of high pressure beneath it that creates lift, right, that stabilizes it. Well, it stabilizes it if the thing is tethered, which is how the - so that, combined with the fact that it's filled with helium, which is lighter than air, allows this thing to stay vertical, pretty much vertical, all the time.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah. They said on the website that both the helium and the Magnus Effect will not allow it to lean more than 45 degrees from vertical at any point. Even if it's, like, wind swirling in all different directions, it still stays pretty stable.

Josh Clark: I wonder if there's a money back guarantee on that.

Chuck Bryant: That's a lot of money, but they don't pay you back for the helium. That's where they get you.

Josh Clark: And actually, Chuck, there's this thing called the Magnus Airship that operates on the Magnus Effect Principle that was invented in the '70s that gave rise to the MARS turbine, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, Freddy Ferguson, who's the founder of this company, old Fred Ferguson, he invented the Magnus Airship, patented it in the 1980s, and then that later became - he was like, hey, I can actually use this thing to generate wind, I bet.

Josh Clark: It's pretty awesome.

Chuck Bryant: It's very awesome.

Josh Clark: Every once in a while, you will run across a green idea that's like, wow, this could actually work really well.

Chuck Bryant: Oh, yeah. The bad news is that it's going to be really pricey.

Josh Clark: At first.

Chuck Bryant: At first.

Josh Clark: Like all wind power, the price is already going down, right, so the initial cost when this article was written, the initial expected cost was about $5.00 to $10.00 per watt, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yes.

Josh Clark: And it's actually less now, as of right now.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, I looked today, and it's $4.50 to $7.00 or so. It's already dropped, and this was written -

Josh Clark: That's upfront cost.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, this is like two-years-old and it's already gone down that much. Not bad.

Josh Clark: Yeah, so take away the $10.00. It's not $5.00 to $10.00 anymore. It's $5.00 or less; it's $4.70 a watt. That's way more than what you pay for electricity as it is now, but you don't generally pay unless you're a Georgia Power customer upfront costs to create electricity. You're paying for the electricity generated, right? This is, you're paying for the turbine. Like, you buy this turbine and, hey, here's your turbine, go create your own power. So again, the price probably will come down dramatically, but once you've got the thing up and running, the operating cost is about .15 cents a kilowatt hour, which is still more than what we pay now, but it's half of what wind energy used to cost when it first started to really come along, say, in the Rainman era. It was .30 cents a kilowatt hour, so as wind power, as electricity generated by wind becomes more ubiquitious, the price for it is going to drop across the board no matter how it's generated.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, and for God sakes, it's a green technology. It's always a little expensive at first, but typically, the people that outfit their houses with solar panels, it cost a little dough to do that, typically, they're people that want to do a little favor to the environment and they realize that over time, they're going to make their money back probably. But not many people are going out and outfitting their house with $30,000.00 worth of solar panels because they want to save a dime, you know?

Josh Clark: Well, yeah, that's true, but it would be helpful if there were, I don't know, rebates for buying something like this, like government rebates or subsidies.

Chuck Bryant: There are, aren't there?

Josh Clark: I think they all expired.

Chuck Bryant: Oh, really? We'll have to look into that. I'll bet there's still some out there.

Josh Clark: I have another question I don't know if you know the answer to. Do these things show up on radar?

Chuck Bryant: Airplanes?

Josh Clark: Yeah.

Chuck Bryant: They do. I'm glad you asked that. Were you setting me up, or you really didn't know?

Josh Clark: I couldn't find an answer to - I really didn't.

Chuck Bryant: Well, the Air Force and the government uses tether balloons up to, like, thousands of feet up in the air, and so they're cleared with the FAA. In order to get one of these things, you have to get a special permit from the FAA, and you have to have a blinking tether. It's a system that blinks once per second.

Josh Clark: That's an extra $50,000.00 for that blinking light.

Chuck Bryant: Blinking tether. So there's some other rules too that the FAA has already put forth here too. You cannot have one within five miles of an airport, at all, or within any flight path in North America.

Josh Clark: Do you know how many flight paths there are?

Chuck Bryant: I imagine there's quite a few that you have to avoid.

Josh Clark: There's at least 17 or 18.

Chuck Bryant: 17 or 18 flight paths. And you have to have the lighting system, like I said, and then you can't have it - you've got to live out in the open. You're not going to be able to put one of these up in your neighborhood in suburban Atlanta.

Josh Clark: Well, originally, the things was designed to be use in very remote places that are off the grid, like if you're on an Antarctic expedition, or an Arctic expedition, whichever one. It could also be used in a disaster situation.

Chuck Bryant: That's the one I love. That's pretty cool.

Josh Clark: It makes a lot of sense. So if you have the MARS turbine, and remember that water manufacturing device that sucks it out of the ambient air, you're set.

Chuck Bryant: You're done. Build a bomb shelter and you're all set for life. I should also point out before we leave, they do envision, one day, probably five to ten years from now, where there is a 4 kilowatt backpack model that you could actually carry with you, dude. Take it camping out in Yosemite -

Josh Clark: And a TV.

Chuck Bryant: Fly that sucker up - yeah, take your TV and your computer, and you can online gamble out there in the woods, yeah.

Josh Clark: Just like everyone else. Just like home.

Chuck Bryant: Pretty cool.

Josh Clark: So that's the MARS turbine. I saw on the site that they're taking orders for them.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, and you can also - if you fit requirements, you can be a test location for these things. There's a lot of requirements, and I imagine a lot of people that live on farms in North Dakota are like, hey, I'll test it out at my house. Come out and set it up.

Josh Clark: I'll bet being photogenic is one of the requirements.

Chuck Bryant: And no bare mid-riff shirts. Nothing see-through.

Josh Clark: So again, if you want to see some cool illustrations of the MARS turbine, you can go to, type MARS into the search bar, and I bet it brings up a lot more than just this article. Chuck?

Chuck Bryant: Yes.

Josh Clark: That means it's time now for listener mail, correct?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, I got a couple of short ones today. Are we going right into it?

Josh Clark: You want to plug?

Chuck Bryant: Nah.

Josh Clark: Okay. South by Southwest.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, we should say we're trying to go to South by Southwest next year in Austin, Texas. We are trying to get on a panel, and apparently, 30 percent of whether they determine we can go to a panel is decided by votes.

Josh Clark: Right, so you can go to, and then you register, and then you vote for the Stuff You Should Know panel under interactive panels, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah. When you go to click on our little thing to thumbs up and vote for us, it'll say, wait, you're not signed up yet and it'll walk you through how to sign up. They promise that you won't start getting email from South by Southwest. It's just to verify that you're a human.

Josh Clark: Just explore the interactive panels on the interactive panel page, or you can search for panels under title. Put Stuff You Should Know and it should bring up ours, and just ours, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, and even if you're not in Texas, we would appreciate you help here to get us to Texas so we can go to South by Southwest and hang out with bands. That's what I'm looking forward to.

Josh Clark: That's awesome.

Chuck Bryant: Okay, Josh, these are two short ones. It's funny that you said the word search bar because David, from SUNY, Canton -

Josh Clark: Yeah, I saw this.

Chuck Bryant: Did you see this one?

Josh Clark: I'm sorry, David.

Chuck Bryant: This is a good one. Darn you, Josh. That's how he opens. I work at one of the state universities of New York. We are a week away from classes beginning, and my office has been besieged by calls from students and staff related to working on campus. This morning, I took two calls in a row, which I referred callers to information on our website by saying, you can type Work Study in the handy search bar. You're totally right. It's an awful phrase - because remember, you had a big problem with this?

Josh Clark: I hate it. I hate handy search bar.

Chuck Bryant: After 200+ times you've said it, you hate it. I love it. I don't love it. I love that you said that.

Josh Clark: I understand.

Chuck Bryant: Josh, it's an awful phrase, but it's awful because it's awful and can't be. It's like Karma Chameleon. I hate that song, but if I hear it just once, it's in my head.

Josh Clark: I think Culture Club is one of the more underrated bands that came out of the '80s. They get lumped in with crappy bands from the '80s, but they, and Duran Duran, were actually very talented musically.

Chuck Bryant: I would like to add Adam and the Ants on that list too. They were awesome, and not at all [inaudible].

Josh Clark: You know, he was in a mental institution for a little while. He had a breakdown at a benefit concert. He started railing on Christians, and they took him away and said you need some rest, and he was like, no, I just don't like Christians.

Chuck Bryant: He's like, I'm rested fine. Let's finish this email. He says these things are like grey matter superglue. With great power comes great responsibility, Josh. You started this; you need to finish it. Come up with a better name. Help us Obi Joshcanobi. You're our only hope. That is David from SUNY, Canton.

Josh Clark: Right, and David, from SUNY Canton, which I assume means State University of New York.

Chuck Bryant: You got it.

Josh Clark: I am taking your email quite seriously. I am already beating you to the punch. I haven't come up with anything yet, but I will get handy search bar out of everyone's head, including my own, okay?

Chuck Bryant: And I got another quick one, Josh. This one made me laugh. This is from Curt in Minnesota. After listening to the tick episode, guys, I was reminded of one of my most disgusting memories. When I was little, my neighbor and I were sitting on his front porch playing with his dog. Out of nowhere, the neighbor kid gets really excited, has this look on his face, pulls a tick off the dog, and eats it. You didn't see this one? The memory still haunts me today. After looking online about similar cases, I came across someone calling them dogberries, which makes it even more disturbing. Hope this hasn't ruined your day, Curt from Minnesota.

Josh Clark: Curt, it takes a lot more to ruin our day than that, doesn't it?

Chuck Bryant: I don't know, dogberries, it's pretty gross.

Josh Clark: What's sad is our days are consistently ruined.

Chuck Bryant: Yeah, every day.

Josh Clark: So thank you for that. So Curt, and then David, right?

Chuck Bryant: Yes.

Josh Clark: Thanks for sharing. We appreciate that. I promise you I will come up with something to replace handy search bar. I've just kind of gone to the sterile search bar now, have you noticed?

Chuck Bryant: Henky search bar?

Josh Clark: No, not henky either. Henky's in that same group, the same ballpark as handy.

Chuck Bryant: We've been overusing it. We gotta mix it up.

Josh Clark: We will.

Chuck Bryant: All right, Frank.

Josh Clark: Okay, Jimmy. So if you want to send Frank or Jimmy an email, you can do that, and don't forget Chucks new nickname is Chucktran. Just send us an email will you, so we can end this podcast. Wrap it up and send it off to

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